General Discussion, Race Reports & Results, for More 'Scale Related' Model Cars.
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Postby ozproducts » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:06 pm

Saturday, November 19th
6:00pm 1/32 Modern GT. Div. 1 & Div. 2
9:00pm 1/24 Historic Sports & Can-am

Sunday, November 20th
9:00am MiniZ
11:00am Group C Lexan Bodies*
2:00pm GTJ
3:30pm F1
Entry Fee's $15.00 per class

* The SLP1 & SLPJ chassis are not legal for the Group C Lexan Class.

Kid Kaos

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Postby stoo23 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:19 pm

The SLP1 & SLPJ chassis are not legal for the Group C Lexan Class

Hmm,..Can someone please explain how come this particular situation has come about, without ANY discussions amongst Any of the racers?

There has been No Mention of this Exclusion Whatsoever at Any race Meeting.

As far as I am aware, both Kim and Noel will be heading down here intending to run these chassis and I will be building up the chassis that Mark Fox won at the APC for him to run as well.

Please remember that these chassis were handed out as Prizes in the Group C class by Werner at the recent APC, so how come they have suddenly become illegal in the Lexan class? Yet I have been running them in Our Club Lexan bodied Group C championship.

The SLPJ IS in effect completely a 1700 based chassis as outlined in Both the APC and Qld' Plafit rules, where-as the SLP1 can in No way be described as a 1700, as there are No common parts.

These chassis were available over the counter at HSC for Many Months and it has to be said, that I took quite a gamble on purchasing Another Expensive piece of Meccano, (though Not as exhorbitantly expensive as the suggested piece of Shite that was promoted as being 'The Gun' setup), to run in this class.

The APC and Qld' Plafit Rules are Quite Clear on the Matter and they Are Legal.
There currently aren't Any Lexan Group C rules covering either our Local Club Championship or the State titles per-se.

Is it MY Fault that it has turned out to be a rather effective combination?
Yet it is Quite clear this somewhat arbitrary decision has completely excluded Myself and Mark Fox from running in this class, let alone any others that may have these cars.

I will NOT be Purchasing that Other piece of Meccano Madness Just to run in this class, I have already spent a small fortune on these damn Plafit cars and can simply Not afford to spend ANY More.

I believe I am both a friendly, helpful racer and serious supporter and promoter of HSC in general and am ever so slightly More than just vaguely dismayed by this Exclusion let alone the fact that No one at HSC has bothered to mention this to me in person.
It was only because I was checking on the proposed dates for the Plafit part of the State Titles that I even noticed this.

Would have been a Fun?? situation 'on the Day' eh !!??


So, apart from James's recent 1/32 modern Gt car how Many other cars are fitted with 3/32 axles and running gear?,..Perhaps They should be classified as illegal as well, Especially as His car in that class is proving to be as effective as My SLPJ in Group C.
Last edited by stoo23 on Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Noel B » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:54 pm

Well let me say to you stoo that neither Kim or myself are or have ever intended running an Slp chassis in group C lexan. When we were there for the APC this year James and Wayne made it quite clear to me that the SLP chassis would not be legal. So on that info it has never entered my mind to run one of these chassis. The car that Foxxy drove of Kim's was a 1700 g. Kim's and mine how ever were the J chassis.

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Postby stoo23 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:32 pm

Hi Noel,...Well,..That Is Exactly The Chassis I have Been discussing !!

To Clear up Any confusion, there are a Number of Plafit chassis that include the "SLP" model descriptor in the Product Code/Name.
The SLP chassis that people keep referring to as Not Legal, is the 1800 SLP-2, which has Never been used by anyone in this country or in any Plafit race as far as I am aware, in fact it has Only recently even been made available here in Aus.

The Chassis I am speaking of Is in Fact the Exact 1700 SLPJ chassis that was handed out as prizes at the APC.

Kim drove mine prior to the APC and then promptly purchased the other 1700 SLPJ chassis that HSC had in stock ,... and is in fact the same style of chassis that you and Kim ran at the APC.

As the Lexan Group C rules were the same as the Hard Bodied Group C rules, (apart from the designated body style), the Rules are Quite Clear in stating "Any 1700 based chassis".

The 1700 SLPJ IS in fact exactly that, a 1700 chassis with the Only real difference being in the Brass Base Plate with the Motor cutout as per the 1700 GCK conversion kit.

The SLPJ uses Standard 1700 chassis Parts, whereas the SLP-1 and SLP-2 are completely Different designs and have unique to themselves chassis parts.

Here is a 'link' to the ACE Hobbies site showing the 1700 SLPJ Kit; http://acehobbies.com.au/store/product_info.php?cPath=25_28_85&products_id=439

Here is the ACE Hobbies 'link' to the 1800 SLP-2 chassis which can easily be seen to be a Completely Different animal;http://acehobbies.com.au/store/index.php?cPath=25_28_102

And for Further clarification, I have attached some pics of the 1700 SLPJ

Is this Not the same chassis you and Kim were running ??

I mean Heck, I doubt Werner would have been handing out Chassis as Prizes for the Group C class that weren't actually Legal in Group C!!,.. :) :D
slp_aufbau012.jpg (37.55 KiB) Viewed 9820 times
slp_aufbau015.jpg (17.46 KiB) Viewed 9820 times
slp_aufbau018.jpg (18.41 KiB) Viewed 9820 times

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Postby axman » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:17 pm

What can I say Stu... This is an in-house thing between you, the local drivers and the management of Hornsby Slotcars.
At the Hornsby APC James made it quiet clear that "the J" chassis was a "hard body" chassis only and would not be eligible for the Lexan Group C state titles.
In accordance with those instructions Noel and I have prepped our cars not using 1700 "j" components.
Don't really understand the logic as I'm all for keeping things cheap for the racers... and it is an expensive exercise "optioning" up a stock 1700 to get a decent car. Also can't see how the local Hornsby racers were'nt aware of this.
Really hope you can put something together,

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Postby stoo23 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:42 pm

Hey Kim,.. :)

Thanks Very much for the reply and may I say I AM Very glad that neither yourself or Noel were heading here to race with what has apparently become an illegal chassis for the class.

May I say I am now somewhat amazed that You guys Knew this and were 'informed' at the APC!! I Certainly Didn't know this,..which is Even More surprising considering I have been racing one regularly in the Very Same class in Our local HSC Club Championship and Obviously am at HSC quite frequently !!!,.. :o :shock: :?

As stated above, I will NOT be putting Another car together for this class in the State Titles and am just quietly somewhat annoyed that it would appear I Now have a Useless $200.00 car.

What Can I say?


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Postby Noel B » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:55 pm

Stoo mate... We weren't exactly informed, we or I just asked the ? and James gave me the answer. So from our point of view up here there has been a misunderstanding between the racers at Hornsby and the management. We up here admire the lexan group C class that James has down there, when I say we I mean most of us. From what I understand you guys have had this class for a little while so why is it only now that the Slp j problem has arose ?

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Postby stoo23 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:58 pm

Hi again Noel,

Well,..I guess 'In Effect' You Were informed,..if Only by your Own Inquiries,.. :D

I'd have to venture that there probably Isn't a Misunderstanding between The Management and the Other Local Racers running in this class, as it in reality doesn't actually affect them, as I am the Only person that races at HSC that owns one of these chassis, so I guess the Misunderstanding is purely between the Management and myself.

As to why this SLPJ problem has only Now arisen, is simply because I had not noticed the Note of Exclusion in the first 'post' in this thread until the other day, when as I said I checked to see if the specific dates for the Plafit rounds had been posted,..(The HSC Race Calender, whilst listing all the State Title dates, does not Detail Which class is held on which day).

I knew Retro was on this coming weekend, but was unsure of the Plafit dates.

The Only 'Published' Group C rules were for the Hard Bodied version ( see here; http://forum.ascra.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=271
and perhaps I Foolishly assumed the Lexan rules would be the same except for the the Body.
But as No Updated or specifically Changed rules have been 'Posted' or mentioned (as far as I am aware) then perhaps my assumption was 'initially' Not so foolish.

So, I guess it is Only a problem for myself :(

Being a somewhat low income earner, I only have limited funds and in all honesty, I have already Overspent on these Plafit cars and in my opinion, the Optioned up GCK 1700 chassis are overly expensive and unecessarily complex chassis, which don't 'Handle' as well as the far more Basic 1700 SLPJ chassis.

When one considers how effective and affordable the 1300 style chassis are with Lexan bodies, I kind of have a degree of difficulty understanding Why I (or anyone else for that matter) would even consider spending More than Double that amount on an appropriate (Legal) Lexan Group C chassis to end up with a car that is Not as fast as the 1300 chassis are.

My Early suggestion was to use either the Standard 1700 chassis or the 1300 for the Lexan Group C cars.

I must admit though I really have enjoyed the actual driving of My SLPJ,..it IS as I have mentioned Easily the finest handling Plafit car I have driven!

Anyway, thanks for your Input and comments,..as I said, being unaware of there even being a Problem with the SLPJ chassis as a choice for this class I was simply concerned that Others, Like myself, May have also been unaware of the Rule change.

I must admit I now also feel somewhat uncomfortable about my position in the Local Lexan Group C championship, as I simply wanted something that was cost effective and allowed me to compete in the classes I was interested in.

I guess having always been a Scratch Builder myself and have the belief that there can Always be a Better Mousetrap I was also intrigued by the prospect of having something Different to what everyone else was running, like the title of Mark Donohue's book, "The Unfair Advantage",... :D
I can Only assume some People HAVE decided the SLPJ IS an Unfair Advantage !!,.. ;) :D

So, I guess if anyone wants an extremely effective and well set up SLPJ chassis that has Won every race it has run in and is leading the Local Group C Championship, for future Hard Body racing (Something I personally have No interest in), then My car is available.

Anyone interested can send me a PM and we can work out a Price. I also have Gary's Carbon parts for it along with a few spares to suit like Spur gears and it is fitted with the Hypie Gold Bearings and I have Both ScaleAuto and Plafit rear tyres/wheels to suit.

I Must say though that I am somewhat disappointed generally, as I was actually really looking forward to having a race against a few other SLPJ chassis in this class. I mean Heck, they drive SO Well, it really would have made for some extremely competitive racing and would have made for a great 'Test' of ones 'Mettle' running against yourself, Kim, Fox and anyone else that has one of these chassis. :)

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Postby Noel B » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:26 pm

Stoo I do agree with you whole heartedly re the J chassis as having an awesome handling characteristic. It is a pitty that they are not allowed but rules are rules as long as they are well known that is. I really hope you can race this class and if you do have some trouble getting a chassis together please pm me and I will loan you one of mine with a new body on it no problems at all mate. All so mate pm me re your J chassis please.

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Postby axman » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:22 am

Yep Stoo, Noel's on the money. Spend $23 and just buy a "tin plate" and convert...
As a way of recouping your cash outlay I bet you could cut up the brass chunk and make some really interesting D3 bits.. I see a nice motor box base plate there with just a few holes here and there to remind you it of its shady past.
The bonus is it might be a really good Plafit D3 and beat James. Now thats sweet revenge

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Postby jcol56 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:00 pm

Apologies to you, Stewart for the confusion around legality issues for your chassis. If you remember back to the time of purchase of your chassis, I informed you it was not legal for racing at Hornsby or anywhere else, and I had purchased them out of curiosity if nothing else. Then I was informed there had been a special dispensation made on your behalf to allow you to race your car in the Lexan Class, the details of that conversation I was not included in and in light of the discussion that has taken place in this Topic, I should have questioned more fully at the time. I apologise once again. Then came the APC and subsequent rule change to include, "Any homologated 1700 type chassis" in the Group C Hard Body Class. I guess everyone south of the border had a major brain fade and did not interpret this statement to read, "including the SLP1 chassis, but not the SLP2" (except for Cameron from Dapto, who hastily prepared a car with a SLP1 after hearing the news). I submitted a protest at the time on behalf of the NSW racers, but of course my arguments carried no weight as we had clearly misinterpreted the rules and were at fault. It was a shame that you chose not to be more visible at the APC so you could have been more involved in the discussions over this issue where the decision was made not include this chassis in any other class than for Group C Hard Body Racing (as per the APC Rules). We try to follow the APC Rule set as a guideline for our Plafit Racing, but there are a number of points we choose not to conform to at Hornsby, for instance polar length restrictions for Canam, clearance and weight restriction changes for 1/32 Modern GT etc., the majority of the APC Rules are included. I, however, must accept blame for not having taken the time to create said rules in a published form, one of many tasks on my to do list.
Back to our Group C racing, and subsequent complaints from the other racers concerning the legality of your car, where I had no choice but to support your continuing involvement in this class based on the original dispensation that had been made at the beginning of the season.
If you wish to return your chassis to me, I will give you a full refund, or exchange it for a 1700.
Owner HSC.

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Postby Noel B » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:00 am

Well Stoo you can't beat that for customer service, it solves the whole problem and gets you back in the game in no time at all. Should be more track owners like James around , the hobby would be far better for it. Well done James.

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Postby stoo23 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:37 pm

Well, first up, May I thank you James for your Most Gracious apology and reply.

In reference to Kim's last post, Hmm,.... Somehow I doubt I could Bring myself to 'Dirty the Retro Waters' per-se by building Anything for such a Great Class with ANY Plafit parts !!!,.. ;) :D

As for Revenge!!??,..well,..that Just isn't My style or general attitude in Life let alone slot car racing and to be Honest, I have No need to take revenge against Anyone, let alone James.

I thoroughly enjoy racing against racers of the Quality and attitude of James. Not Only is he a Damn Nice bloke generally, he IS, as has been noted by Noel, a Great Track owner.
He is a tough, Skilled driver and he and I have had Many a Close and enjoyable finish in Many fantastic races as can easily be ascertained by reading any of my race reports.

I guess that is partly why I had/have been so upset and dismayed by what has transpired, as I simply could Not understand why (as has become so patently obvious) Everyone Else seemed to Know about this Unique Exclusion apart from myself.

Referring to some of the points made in your reply James,..Yes, I do recall Our initial conversation, but also remember suggesting to you, that the SLPJ/SLP1, Had as far as the rules which were Already in place was and Should be Legal, pointing out that it was Once again, the SLP2 that was Not legal.

May I suggest it was NOT when the APC came along that this situation occurred, but well Prior to that time, in fact may I refer you to the HORNSBY Slot Cars 2010 Group C rules, which are still available on the ASCRA web site,
See here; http://ascra.com.au/pdf/Hornsby/2010_Group_C.pdf

From that document;
7.1. Any PLAFIT 1700 series chassis may be used with the exception of the SLP?2.
7.2. The chassis must be assembled according to the manufacturers intended design using nuts and bolts.
7.3. Only parts manufactured by Plafit for the 1700 series chassis may be used except as may be specifically
allowed in this rule set. Parts unique to the SLP?2 chassis may not be used.

That Statement was the Basis of what I was trying to suggest to yourself and Wayne at the time of our initial conversation and IS in fact what I had/have been trying to suggest to Most people Including all the Local racers for some time now.

I would have to suggest that as you pointed out it has actually been quite some time that People South of the Qld' border had Brain Fades, or More correctly either the inability to read and interpret Clear and concise Rules written in English, although somehow, I doubt Many even bothered to actually Read the aforementioned rules.

As far as I am aware, Until Very recently (being the recent APC held at HSC), for Plafit racing at HSC, we had been running under the 2009 Qld' Plafit rules, (from which the above HSC 2010 rules set had been derived).

I believe the Confusion of these SLP style chassis may actually have come about from the aborted PEC and it's rule set, which DID exclude Both SLP1/J and SLP2 style chassis.

BUT as you have also pointed out the chassis was Legal at this Years APC and I must give Credo to Cameron for being Smart and Sharp enough to also realise what I had in reading the rules and realizing the SLPJ WAS quite Clearly Legal.

I must say though, that I Do take exception to the suggestion of a conversation that ended with as you put it a 'Dispensation' for me to race the car in Our local club championship.
I am Honestly completely Unaware of that word entering into ANY conversation I have had about these cars, with Anyone.
I think you may be referring to the conversation I had with Wayne, when I actually purchased the chassis and the other parts to build it and in that regard, I clearly remember asking once again whether the Lexan Group C rules Were in effect the same as the Hard Body rules and Once Again re-iterated the "Any 1700 based chassis" section of the existing rules.

It WAS Because of that statement in the rules that I went ahead and purchased the chassis as, as far as I could understand it was Completely Legal and therefore needed No Special Dispensation to be raced.

Honestly, I would NOT have or even been remotely interested in Racing under ANY formal or informal Dispensation!

Like I Keep saying, the Only Existing Group C rules had made it Patently clear that it could be used and as No Lexan Specific rules had been written or discussed then it should Not have even been an Issue.

May I say I am amazed and completely unaware of your Specific Protest of this chassis at the recent HSC APC,..but I guess it could be suggested a somewhat untenable situation since the Same rule was included in the Previous Years HSC Group C rule set.

I DO however take exception to your comment regarding NOT making myself more 'visible' at the APC!!
I spent Nearly ALL day at HSC until quite late on the Friday Official Testing Day and days Prior to that both Testing and Tuning My cars and working with Wayne, Troy, Cody and others in the pits,..Especially with regard to the 1/24th Classic and 1/32 Modern GT cars.
In fact it was due to this Testing and the Fact that My 917 Porsche was so fast, that prompted Wayne to 'Prepare' similar 917 bodies for both Cody and Troy.
We all worked for many hours trying different Ratios and in fact Troy and Cody both tried their cars with My 917 body mounted to Prove to themselves that their Own cars Were Quicker with that body fitted!

Believe me I was Particularly annoyed with Myself for Sleeping In on the first Race Day of the APC, apart from missing the races Myself, I had also agreed to pick up Wayne's daughter and bring her to the Track.
For that I Was Most apologetic, but it had been a Very hard Work week for Myself with Many 14 to 18 hour days at work, let alone late night Car prep for the APC,..I Was VERY Annoyed with Myself, as after testing, I really Was most definitely looking forward to it, as I believed I had a Real Shot at both 1/32 Division 2 and 1/24th CanAm/Classics.

I Did eventually turn up on the Saturday as you are well aware.
I watched the Group C races and in Fact stayed at the track until Very late in the evening, due to a Most Gracious offer of a car to race by Jimmy Patterson in the following days JGT class.
In fact I stayed at the Track to Make the Necessary changes and 'Prep' of the JGT cars and in fact helped a few Other fit the Hand-out motors.

I did also turn up on the Sunday to race, but you are aware I believe of what occurred that day and needs no further re-iteration.
I WAS at the time slightly annoyed and so after a short period I took my leave and returned home, as by that stage, I was to be honest,..Over it.

So may I say,..I think for the Most part I Was 'Fairly Visible' and during that time, was Not aware of ANY of the Converstaions/protests to which you refer.

To be honest James, after the Many conversations we have All had at various times at HSC, that I am somewhat taken aback by the suggestion that We/HSC try to follow the APC rules for Plafit racing. As Until recently, I was under the belief that we were following the 2009 Qld' championship Plafit rules, but it matters Not.

As far as Rules go, I guess as can be gleaned from this particular 'Mess' they DO need to be Written/Made available and be as clear as possible to hopefully Avoid this type of situation.
Being as busy as you are running arguably one of the Best Slot racing centres in the country I can completely understand that you may very well have a long list of unfinished 'To Do' items, but like with the recent MCN, I am more than happy to Help out in formulating and getting the relevant rules and subsequent questions by the racers 'sorted', as I just want the Great racing we are fortunate to experience at HSC to continue and to Grow for the benefit of ALL racers.

Which brings us back to Our Local Races and the Subsequent 'Complaints' regarding the 'Legality' of My Group C car.
May I say I am personally Very Sorry to have placed you in such a Difficult Position (with regard to the Suggested Special Dispensation applied to myself and My car).
Had I been even Vaguely aware of the fact that there Were Any complaints or as mentioned, aware that I was 'Apparently' racing my car under some form of Special arrangement I would have been More than happy to have atleast had some discussion regarding the matter at worst.

May I officially apologize to you once again for placing you in a difficult position over this matter and may I also thank you for your Most Kind Offer of a Refund or Exchange.

I am at the moment unsure as to what I intend to do, as I am unfortunately in a rather bad situation financially, making it rather difficult to know whether I can really even afford to do much if Any further racing, in ANY class this year. Covering the Entry Fees and petrol required to attend will be difficult, let alone the purchase of any required Spares etc to continue to compete.

Once again I thank you and apologize for the inadvertent difficulties and confusion that these damned Plafit cars have once again caused.
In that regard and Specifically regarding Our Local Club Championship and all the Annoyed local racers, may I say I Have and Do Not Ever want to Race under Any Special Personal Dispensations or conditions.

I want to race Under the Rules as applied, I do Not want to Race or Win what would be or is in effect a Hollow Championship or Victory, I Could suggest that perhaps like Cameron and myself, you Should have read the Rules.

I believe I Do Prepare and race my cars Completely Legally.
The concept or suggestion of Cheating or Rule bending is to be honest a complete Anaethema to me and I believe in that regard I HAVE tried to Follow, Race and compete in the True 'Spirit of the rules, which is why I have tried to make my cars appear appropriate, by making My Own Decals for my cars so that they DO In effect truly Reflect the cars that actually Did race in real life as suggested by the various Rules.

So in closing and hopefully to represent My true attitude towards both yourself, the centre and my fellow racers, although it erks me to do so, (as Until recently as stated I believed I was doing Nothing inconsistent within the framework of the rules as I understood them), Officially request that ALL my Points/Wins in our Local Club Group C Championship be Removed.

I will also Not compete in this class in the Final round of the championship, allowing those who have been affected/offended in this matter to compete and finalise the championship in the manner that they obviously wish it to be conducted.

As much as I am personally annoyed and somewhat offended myself over this matter, I believe it is the Only thing I can do to End the apparent Whingeing and obvious Distress this has appeared to have caused my fellow racers.

May I also suggest to those Same Fellow racers, that discussion and discourse Face to Face in a non confrontational manner is what Can and Will sort these problems out and IS in fact what I have often suggested this Forum IS about.
The discussion and dissemination of Ideas and suggestions etc to the benefit of all.
Considering how long this has obviously been 'festering', perhaps a discussion Should have been entered into concerning the matter at one of the Race meetings to have cleared the matter up Well before this time.

Personally and for those unsure you can check with either Wayne or James, I have NEVER complained about ANY one that I Race with, their cars or Their attitude, either On or Off track and considering how open and free I am with technical and driving help to my fellow racers, often offering my Spare cars to those without to join us in the Fun, I say to you Now,..Watch Out !!!
No More Mr Nice guy.

In the classes where My Cars or myself Can NOT be called or placed under suspicion, I will be Racing As Hard if Not even harder than I normally do.

Sorry to have Annoyed you all,..but this situation Has really Annoyed me and gone a Long way to Now making me feel Quite uncomfortable about both my racing and appearance at HSC generally and kind of put a Sad damper on my own personal Fun and enjoyment of this simple Hobby/Sport.

I am as I said unsure whether I will attempt to race in the Group C class at the State Titles as I will have little time or money to allow myself to prepare and tune a car suitably to compete as effectively as I usually and would like to for an event of that nature,..I guess, time will tell.